Out of Office: Experiences to Guide Success for Remote Work — Natalie Cantave Part II
Remote work unexpectedly became standard in 2020. While working remotely can be empowering and productive, without the right infrastructure or approach, it can also be terrible. These interviews explore individual remote work experiences in the hopes that through sharing what works and what doesn’t you can find new ideas to try out for yourself or your team.
Natalie Cantave (she/her) is the Associate Director of Marketing and Design at Electives. Natalie is from New Jersey, has lived in Somerville MA for 5 years, and currently lives in Boston. Her entry into remote work came with the pandemic, as did launching MKTG WMN, a powerful (and free) community to empower and connect women in marketing (including designers/creatives) with her co-founder Gabrielle.
Topics we explore:
- Intentional relationships in remote and in-office work
- Equity and microaggressions within office culture: remote and in-person
- Importance of talking directly to employees to understand employee needs
- Prioritizing feedback and input versus assumptions
I think it took me the pandemic to realize that without hanging out with friends after dinner or going to the gym or just a casual Friday dinner, to be shut down in your home or apartment and everything you’re doing every day is your job… I needed to find something that fulfills me. The pandemic really stripped from people their hobbies and I definitely feel like that’s contributed to the great resignation.
You’ve now worked for three different companies since the pandemic started, what have these companies done right with their approach to remote work?
The first job, when it went remote, something that was positive was creating space to know that we have no idea what’s going on and talking about it with my team. In 2020 there were a bunch of unknowns and question marks, figuring out just how to just navigate this world we’re in or just creating spaces for us to have virtual happy hours was a way to connect with people virtually.
I think in this job currently (at Electives), something that’s been really good is our book club that we have, we’re able to read together and talk about a book and be able to share our perspectives and short stories. We finished this book called Professional Troublemaker by Luvvie Ajayi Jones and the first section was on who we are. We shared our stories about what our names mean and where we are from and what brings us joy. The second part we talked about any vulnerabilities we had around when we are afraid to voice an opinion, and who are the people we look up to that are not afraid to push the envelope and speak their mind personally or professionally. We all had a conversation that a lot of the women in our lives, whether it was personal or professional, have been inspiring role models in different ways. We have our last book discussion on Friday, which will be exciting to talk about any learnings that we want to take and apply to our personal lives. Whether it’s something as little as, ‘Okay, if I really don’t like this haircut, I’m going to actually tell my hairdresser like, Hey, can we change it?’ Instead of accepting it. How do we create a culture where we’re encouraging us to speak our minds and voice our opinion? It’s a different way of bonding instead of another virtual happy hour because they do get tiring.
You have experience creating remote spaces now with MKTG WMN but also with your job. What have you learned that’s foundational to doing that successfully?
I think one of the biggest things that I’ve learned from this experience is being authentic and staying true to myself. I think from MKTG WMN something that’s been really great for Gabrielle and I to build this space is that we wanted it to be a space where people can share what they want to learn and bring that to other women in the community. We don’t want to dictate how other people should navigate community.
Last time we chatted we talked about the difference between being busy and being productive. And then you also mentioned that you felt as a black woman in tech that there was like a sense of being watched and standing out. Do you feel like remote work has helped decrease microaggressions or increased inclusivity in office culture?
For myself, a woman of color, I definitely felt like I was being watched more because I was in an office space where it was a super open environment
I’ve realized that I’m not a super fan of open office floor plans. I like them for the collaboration, but I don’t like the feeling of being watched in the space. From the micro aggression part, with remote work it’s not in your face. When I’ve had, for example, a microaggression [in an office], I remember at my first job out of college I wore a leopard printed shirt one day and this guy was like, ‘Oh, I like your African print’. And I was like ‘it’s just a leopard shirt’. And literally a woman on my team, she was this white woman wearing a similar style shirt and he was like, ‘Oh, I like your animal print’. And I was like, Okay, why do I have the designation of having African print because I’m a Black woman? So I think those microaggressions about what I wear to the workplace are removed because I’m remote, but just being a woman of color or how you wear your hair… There are times where I’ve wrapped my hair at night to go to sleep and there’s some days where I want to work with it on but I don’t want to turn on the camera because I don’t know how my coworkers are going to act. So I think the in your face comments are removed and separated for me, which I think is a good thing. But I don’t want to say that remote work completely removes microaggressions. It feels different because you’re getting viewed from the lens of your home. Sometimes I just want to wear a bonnet. I have to second guess that. If it’s like a Friday and I don’t have a lot of meetings, I’m going to be on camera, I don’t want to just pull my hair. I want to just wear it. I don’t know how my coworkers are going to act and I think that gives me a little bit of hesitancy because it may not be seen as work appropriate even though I’m home. But if I don’t have any meetings and I’m getting my work done, as long as I’m getting work done that’s what should matter. It’s a little bit of a different lens, especially because you’re getting a view of your home.
I hadn’t thought about the uninvited home lens with most people being driven remote during the pandemic and how that could be invasive. It would be great for companies to consider offering people a background screen, like something that you can put behind them, and being more inclusive of cameras off on calls.
I talked to a couple of friends who are Black women at work and some are like, ‘I don’t really care, ‘I’m going to wear my bonnet to work because this is who I am.’ They feel comfortable in that but they also are in an environment they may feel a little bit more comfortable because they are surrounded by other Black women who are authentically doing the same thing. But for some Black women in tech where you don’t have a team where it’s majority women of color, it’s a different thought. Like yes, you know you’re not going to wear it in a meeting with a client but if it’s internal meetings and that’s part of who I am, I should feel comfortable wearing that versus having this second thought of, ‘oh, is this going to be considered work appropriate?’ Even pre-pandemic there were always comments about how Black men and women have worn their hair and what’s considered and perceived to be professional and unprofessional. No matter in-person or remote it’s still something that is a microaggression that may continue no matter what the environment is because someone wears their hair one way for a week and changes it’s like, ‘oh my God, you look so different. What happened to your hair?’ Those comments are still going to appear because you’re on camera, right? It’s not in-person, in the office, but they’re going to continue. Because you’re on camera and you’re in your home, versus if I didn’t have my camera on for a day people wouldn’t make a comment because you don’t get to see that part of me.
Something that hit me even more, with April being Ramadan, people are fasting all day, right? It was something we knew, if we had any Muslim identifying colleagues. Maybe people would have conversations, have questions on it, but I think now with remote work there’s this extra layer of exhaustion because you’re on camera all day. How can workplaces support Muslim identifying colleagues and individuals who are still working a full day while honoring their observances? I’ve seen a lot more messages on social media about what is the more appropriate way to have conversations about Ramadan versus ‘oh my god what do you mean you mean you fast all day? Like, aren’t you starving?’ Stupid fucking questions right? Workplaces, we need to talk about that because we don’t know what’s going on in people’s day to day. It’s something that affects a population that we need to honor. Give them the space to observe their religious observances or however they practice over the month of Ramadan, but also,support our colleagues too as they take the time to honor that part of themselves.
It’s not just about asking questions, it’s taking the time to think about how to ask the right questions.
When the pandemic was going on, at my job two jobs ago, I remember myself and a lot of young people… Our company at the time said, ‘Oh, we’re gonna go remote by like, June’ and then, ‘No, we’re gonna be remote by September’ and a bunch of us were really putting some heat on our manager. Leadership knew people rented, but they didn’t know that September 1 is the big lease cycle in Boston for renting. They didn’t know that landlords sometimes expect you to sign April, March, May. And I remember at the time, people were frustrated because we needed to figure out where we’re going to live. If you’re expecting us to come back to the office like September 1, that means we have to commit financially to a place to live [in Boston Metro]. And leadership was like, ‘Oh, we’re going to go to our summer home’, and we’re like, okay, you get to go to your summer home in the cape or New Hampshire or whatever, but, some of us can’t go home. Some co-workers don’t have a second home to escape to — or there may be others who could not relocate due to complicated family dynamics. You’re not telling me if I’m allowed to be remote. And if I don’t have to stay in Boston, I should be able to leave Boston, be able to work anywhere’. But this whole back and forth around remote/in-person was affecting people’s housing decisions. We had an all-hands with the CEO. So many people were pushing the CEO to make a decision. And she got emotional with ‘Oh my God, I feel like you all are being mean’ and it’s like we’re not being mean, this affects where we live in our homes and how much we pay in rent. Y’all stalling and not understanding where people are coming from is why people are frustrated. I had to have a one-on-one conversation with the head of our team because he did not understand why people were frustrated. And I remember I literally gave an example, ‘my lease is September, but by April 15 I have to say that if I’m basically going to lock in this apartment, otherwise, my apartment, the end of the day goes up on the market. Which means he starts showing it, which means that he finds a new tenant. I have to move and find a new spot which then means I have to put down lots of money, and with the Boston housing market worst case: first, last, broker, security fee. During a pandemic — that’s a ALOT of money. If I don’t have to move, I’m going to stay but some people want to leave Boston. [They] don’t want to pay rent because [they] want to save the money’. And saying that and being vulnerable about what was going on took leadership to be like ‘oh we understand’ because they just assume that people will just go to a second home. I had a coworker who lived in his car and was working and they didn’t know that. That’s not an environment where someone could be supported if they have to live out of their car to do their job. Really putting that in people’s faces and being like ‘hey y’all need to make decisions because it’s affecting our actual lives which actually impacts how we do our jobs.”
That was the first time where authenticity really started to happen because we’re just like, you’re playing with not even my money but the roof over my head. I remember that being such a big pivotal part, because we want people to understand and have some kind of empathy but also give us support. If some people have to move, give people some time off to do that, have the space because it’s tiring and exhausting.
I am now luckily in a space and in a company where I was able to take some time off to move. And have that be supported. Moving during the week because that was the only time that I could get movers and my workplace was like, ‘Okay, take some time off, move and we’ll have you back when you’re settled.’
That all-hands with the CEO, we all had this basic need. We don’t have a home, we don’t have WiFi, we can’t do our job. We don’t do our job. We don’t make money, it’s a basic need.
There’s been this weird dissociation between personal and work encouraged in the past and work is personal. It’s extremely personal. Work impacts our quality of life, resources for our families, and the amount of personal time we have. Do you have any concerns about the return to office options (or lack of options) that are happening?
In general with remote work we need to talk about and feel supported. There are people that are navigating a lot of different things.
For workplaces to really hear what women and women of color are going through in the workplace. To know that they are going to feel supported especially with companies going back to hybrid or fully remote. My company is fully remote, but if you go into the workplace more does that mean you’re going to have more access to facetime with leadership and that results in promotions versus someone fully remote? If they’re working and getting their work done but they’re fully remote do they get penalized for not being in person? I think those are the conversations that are now happening, especially as women of color are trying to move up the ladder, it’s been a challenge. What does it mean to navigate this new system, especially when it comes to getting promotions?
You still have to create space to have those conversations, but now that it’s remote it’s a different set of conversations. What does it take to get a promotion for remote work versus in-person? If I’m not on camera, because maybe I don’t like being a camera because I’m a more introverted person, for example, does that mean I’m not a team player? Is that going to be looked at differently compared to going into the office in-person where you’d physically have to be in a meeting? I don’t know what it really will look like but I would hope that we talk about these things in the workplace.
That’s so insightful. Companies and leaders going back to the office or doing hybrid need to continue intentional engagements with their teams. We need to be paying attention to who we’re seeing and who we’re spending time with and who we’re not. That’s an integral part of diversifying leadership.
This piece was edited from its original interview by Jenna Hasenkampf and approved by Natalie Cantave prior to publication.
Natalie Cantave (She/Her) is a Boston-based creative brand & design strategist. She’s passionate about tech & DEI and an experienced community cultivator. Underlying all of her efforts is an insatiable excitement and drive to support the creation of products, programs, events, and activations that improve the daily quality of life for underserved populations and experiences for all.
Connect with Natalie here
Learn more about MKTG WMN here
Jenna Hasenkampf (She/Her) is (currently) a Massachusetts-based writer, Mom, and Managing Director for MKG Marketing, a remote digital marketing agency. She’s worked in in-person creative agencies in San Francisco and New Orleans and is now all about that Remote life.
Check out some of Jenna’s best practices when it comes to managing meetings for a remote team and including retrospectives as part of your team’s process.
If you’re interested in sharing your experience with remote work or leading a remote team please reach out.
