Out of Office: Experiences to Guide Success for Remote Work — Rena Fried-Chung
Remote work unexpectedly became standard in 2020. While working remotely can be empowering and productive, without the right infrastructure or approach, it can also be terrible. These interviews explore individual remote work experiences in the hopes that through sharing what works and what doesn’t you can find new ideas to try out for yourself or your team.
Rena Fried-Chung (She/Her) is the Director of Operations and Business Management for Global Customer Success at Salesforce. She has spent her professional life in San Francisco and New York City. She transitioned into a hybrid-remote role at Salesforce in 2019 and then led her team’s transition to fully remote when the covid pandemic started. She also became pregnant and a first-time Mom while navigating these unprecedented times and continuing to lead her team.
Topics we explore:
- Intentional communication around expectations and boundaries
- Retaining valuable team members
- Unexpected silver linings of pregnancy and remote work
- The importance of team time as we move towards more in-person
“As a manager, I felt like my number one priority was making sure people understood that the transition was actually really hard. This was a really big change in the day-to-day and the way we work, and that we were all [going to be] really intentional, as a team, about how we were going to set ourselves up for success”
Originally your remote work role came about through your move back to NYC to be near your family. It’s a great example of how by being open to remote, your company was able to retain a valuable employee through a personal move.
I was born and raised in Brooklyn, my family’s there. My wife and I were starting to think about expanding our family and we knew we wanted to end up back in New York for that. The whole leadership team of my business unit was based in San Francisco. A couple of people were starting to join across the US to help serve our customers, but all of the leadership was in San Francisco. And so I approached my manager about the move with quite a lot of trepidation. We came to an agreement where I would continue working almost PST hours and I would spend one week a month in San Francisco.
What surprised you about coaching and managing a team remotely?
That’s a big question. I think initially I wasn’t aware of how much I relied on body language and nonverbal communication, to connect with people and understand people.
We had and have a totally open floor plan with hotel desks, so you sort of have an area where you sit every day, but you switch up the seating. I was just very used to casual conversations between meetings and having lunch as a team. There were so many casual, unplanned interactions and conversations. I didn’t realize initially how valuable that was, whether it was onboarding a new team member, or creating a deeper relationship outside of the “business as usual” and that was really challenging. I had a lot of FOMO when I was sitting at home alone in my apartment, feeling very lonely and knowing that the rest of my team was essentially together in person.
I think there’s a really big difference between having one or two people remote and having a fully remote team, I think it’s significantly easier when everybody is remote. When I was the one person, I would dial in [for a meeting] and there’d be a room full of people, and then me on the Hangout and inevitably there’s technology issues. And you know, it just felt really hard to be a part of the conversation in those circumstances.
How did your remote experience set your team up for success when they unexpectedly transitioned to fully remote?
When COVID hit and the lockdowns all started, I had already been remote for six plus months so I certainly came in with a lot of empathy. Because a lot of people hadn’t had that experience before and so they didn’t really know what to expect and what it was going to be like. Having just done it and having had a really hard time adjusting… It was like, ‘All right, everybody, buckle up, this is harder than you think it’s going to be’. And it was really challenging. But I would say after we all sort of got used to the fact that this was our new normal it became easier.
There are a lot of companies out there that couldn’t or wouldn’t put together the infrastructure to make remote working a success, what did a technologically savvy company like Salesforce put in place to make working remotely a success for you?
In April of 2021, Salesforce introduced Success from Anywhere. It is essentially the company’s commitment to support the flexibility that employees were really asking for in a scalable way. We have a new teaming agreement called “Flex Team Agreements” that really allows teams to decide together how they want to collaborate and when, and where they work. Our team in particular, went through a ‘start, stop, continue’. So thinking about: what is currently working in the way that we work, in the way that we communicate, and even things like, where do we store content? We dove into all of that and talked about what was working, what we wanted to stop doing, and what we wanted to continue doing. We put together an agreement for how we wanted to work and communicate.
We had a few big changes come out of that. I’m based on the east coast but my team is based across the U.S. and we work in a global organization. Lots of folks mentioned the incessant pings, Slack messages and email that came at all hours of the day. So we really started to be more mindful of time zones and all started scheduling our messages so that people get them during their business hours and during their time zones. And I think that’s been a really big difference, just being aware because people check their email outside of business hours, right? They just do and if something isn’t urgent, then the person doesn’t need to receive it. So waiting until the morning, small things like that, that can really add up.
Small things can really recognize someone’s personhood, and say “I value your time”. The agreement that you’re talking about reminds me of holacracy, which makes sense because micromanaging and remote work don’t mix well.
I love how you used a retrospective format to make a plan also, it spreads accountability and relies on multiple points of view/experience to find the best path forward.
It was also interesting just to see the head nodding on everything, like somebody would bring something up “I’m probably the only person” and then five people would chime in and be like, “Oh, no, you’re not the only person”. And so having that validation that you’re not the only one feeling a specific way or wanting specific change, I think is really helpful.
Now that we’re coming hopefully out of mandated remote, what’s your ideal working situation, office vs remote?
I do still really miss the face to face contact. I like the people I work with a lot. We do a lot of fun things, but they’re virtual and I do really miss the in-person aspect. It’s definitely a thing that I crave, but I also never want to go into an office five days a week again. I crave a quarterly offsite.
It feels like a nice sort of in-between. I’ve had one offsite since the start of COVID. And it was amazing just how much we were able to get done in a short period of time and I also met people for the first time. Lots of people started since the beginning of COVID and it’s just like, oh, wow, you’re really tall. Just being able to make that connection I feel just makes everything easier.
That’s my favorite game, by the way, finally meeting people in person, playing the who’s tall or short in real life. Always surprising.
I’m hopeful that having virtual options will support a lot more women to come back to the workforce. A big piece of that can be pregnancy and in those early years, what was the impact of working remotely for you being pregnant and now having a baby?
Basically my whole pregnancy, I was calling it the COVID silver lining. I was incredibly thankful not to be traveling, not to be going into an office when I was pregnant. I got pregnant in January 2020, so shortly before the lockdowns. And like I said, I was traveling across the country on a monthly basis, which when you’re at your best is exhausting. But certainly when I was pregnant, I mean, my first trimester, it was like, extreme exhaustion, lots of nausea, very uncomfortable. And then you know, getting sort of less comfortable as the months progressed. So to not have to make those trips, those incredibly strenuous trips to not have to be on an airplane for six and a half hours, I was just incredibly thankful, on top of the fact that I could just be at home. There were several times, especially during my first trimester where I would work half the day and then just take 30 minutes and literally pass out on the sofa, I’d set a timer between meetings, and I would just conk out, and then be up two minutes before my next meeting and then back at it for a few more hours. And to be able to do that… I needed that. I don’t know how I would have gotten through the day without that.
Also, just walking around in my neighborhood, there was a lot of inappropriate commentary about my body, which I feel like women’s bodies, when they’re pregnant, people just feel like it is normal to talk about them. So I was just really happy to not have to physically show up pregnant at work, happy not to have to buy a [new] wardrobe and to wear sweats. And I was beyond thrilled to not have to travel, especially on a plane. And then going back to work was also much easier. I nursed for a year and was so thankful I didn’t have to travel. I know people do it all the time but it’s really hard. Really, really hard.
I’ve pumped in some gross places and it’s almost all been from work travel or having to physically be somewhere for work.
So I felt really grateful that I didn’t have to do that. It made going back to work a lot easier because I could see my child all throughout the day, I never had to physically leave for hours at a time. And even now I have a 14 month old, I love being able to a couple times a day pop out from my desk in my bedroom, and give him some snuggles, read a book, play with him a little bit. It’s really really nice.
Let’s pause here. Your son is 14 months, and you’re still at the same company you were before you were pregnant.
In my first maternity leave, there were four or five Moms I spent time with, and within the first year of becoming Moms every single one of us got a new job, all in different industries. I was stunned that that much turnover happened and it felt like no one really talks about it.
I’m sure your manager would have supported you in scaling back or stopping traveling, but that’s still a very vulnerable conversation to have when you’re pregnant and already feeling vulnerable. A lot of women’s careers are penalized when we have children, I’ve experienced it first hand, and having to ask for special accommodations is intimidating and not without risk.
[I didn’t] have to ask yes, which I felt very, very grateful for. Because I definitely was planning when I got pregnant to sort of suck it up for as long as possible, continue making the trip to San Francisco, continue doing any kind of client trips that I needed to do. I just was not prepared to scale back. And I think probably realistically, I would have had to because people reach physical limits, but I had not prepared myself for that. And to not have to actually go through the process of having what would have been a very vulnerable and incredibly challenging conversation, I was very grateful.
My takeaway for managers is that we need to initiate a conversation with team members during their pregnancy to ask what they need. Ask early about travel and more support to at least open the door for them to come to you later because it is very daunting to be the one to initiate that conversation.
So you’re still at Salesforce which is a big deal, how has working remote retained you at your company?
It’s made the transition easier, but it’s also just given me so much more time. I mean, just not having to commute, forget about the travel, but even just commuting to an office. I’ve worked a few days in our New York office. And when I get home, at the end of the day, I haven’t seen my son for like, 10 hours, and that sucks. It just doesn’t feel good.
At some point, I guess I’ll have to let him go to school. But right now, I’ve been with him, basically, every minute since he was born.
I think it would make me just consider more seriously do I want to continue working in an office job? Being able to have those moments throughout the day makes it really clear to me, I want to do this work, I don’t want to quit my job. It makes it so that I can both see him throughout the day and then continue to work.
What does your road look like in the near future when covid is less scary?
I definitely want those quarterly offsites. My team is becoming increasingly more dispersed across the country. So even to be able to bring that whole team together on a regular cadence. That, to me, is the dream. Salesforce does have an office in New York City, so I would love to go one day a week or one day, every other week. But I think, to me, what’s most important is not just being in person with people, it’s having dedicated team time. So as long as the team is not co-located those quarterly meetups are the most high impact and valuable thing we can do. But I cannot see myself ever working five days in an office again. That is hopefully in my past and something I would never choose to do, and likely wouldn’t accept a job if that was a requirement.
This piece was edited down from its original interview by Jenna Hasenkampf and approved by Rena Fried-Chung prior to publication.
Helpful Links
- Understanding “Expectations vs Agreements” — a great tool to communicate with your team
- Salesforce family benefits
Rena Fried-Chung (She/Her) is a graduate of Dartmouth College and Wharton Business School. She is an NYC native and currently resides in Brooklyn with her family. She develops high-performing teams and is a dynamic people leader with a focus on team cohesion, engagement, and performance. Rena is a fierce advocate of equality in the workplace.
Jenna Hasenkampf (She/Her) is (currently) a Massachusetts-based writer, Mom, and Managing Director for MKG Marketing, a remote digital marketing agency. She’s worked in in-person creative agencies in San Francisco and New Orleans and is now all about that Remote life.
Check out some of Jenna’s best practices when it comes to managing meetings for a remote team and including retrospectives as part of your team’s process.
If you’re interested in sharing your experience with remote work or leading a remote team please reach out.
